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 Topic: To Mr. IvanB - Referring to Qur’aan 9:29 |
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Message posted by Omar on September 17 2005 at 10:35am - IP Logged
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| Omar |
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Ivanb opens a challenge, I'm always up for a challenge, but usually yawns when I deal with these pedantic missionaries, should actually be called missingaries as it seems they are missing quite a lot of knowledge of the Qur'aan.
Ivanb says in this post:
Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on September 16 2005
Sorry for interference, but I would like to comment one very interesting citation by Omar. (I beg Muslims not to take this personally)
- [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
This is exactly what happened in eastern Balkans, where I live. Turks came and behaved that way, and several millions people accepted islam.
I have already expressed (well substantiated) opinion in the topic Angel Gabriel, that the "Gabriel" who appeared to Mohammad was actually devil. This perfectly fits the picture of behavior toward conquered Christians. Here is why:
They are not to be killed, but to be so rigidly handled that they accept islam. After all, why not? Islam believes in one God, forbids adultery, stealing, idolatry etc.
And that's the point. "Gabriel" does not want Christian lives, he wants their souls, their adoration. Islam is right enough good to be accepted, to bless daily Mohammad who denied crucifiction, bow to Mecca instead to the Mount of Olive from where Jesus ascended, and thereby to deny need for Jesus sacrifice.
And islam is fastest spreading religion in the world.
Satan's masterpiece.
My responses to Ivanb below:
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Proclaim! (Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created:
Surah Al 'Alaq (96) v. 1. |
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Message posted by Omar on September 17 2005 at 11:10am - IP Logged
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| Omar |
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As everyone knows, it doesn't take much effort to do a copy and paste action, as Ivanb so boldly demonstrated.
The question is either a lack of knowledge of the subject matter's CONTEXT or a willful intention of misleading people. We'll see how this plays out.
First of all, ivanb does not quote the verses preceeding 9:29 or verses following 9:29. Why is that?
You see, anyone can take verses out of their context, I'll demonstrate using the Bible to give a few examples:
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"
In this verse, if anyone does not accept the "God of Israel", they are to be put to death. Mind you, this is not God, but God of Israel, implying that this "god of Israel" is a special god to israel. Why not God of the worlds or universe? Why god of Israel?
We read again:
17. "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31: 17-18
So, we have in the Bible, the killing of innocent male children, not only that, they are saving the virgin girls, for themselves mind you. Hmmm. I wonder why. 
Lastly, Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:3
There we have it. What conclusion would one draw after reading these carefully selected verses from the Bible? They would surely say, "what a horid and demonic writing is this?"
The reason is they are not given their CONTEXT, so ivanb, being as deceptive as he is, carefully selected this 9:29 from the Qur'aan, carefully out of the context, in order to draw the same conclusions as demonstrated above with regards to the Biblical verses.
This does not sit with me well, as this clearly displays his evil character, but for the benefit of the readers on this forum, I'll briefly go into the verse 9:29 of the Holy Qur'aan, starting with verse 1.
What ivanb and the rest of the missingaries are not telling anyone is that this Chapter of the Qur'aan is the ONLY chapter that does not being with "In the Name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful" as it deals with the HYPOCRITES (people who call themselves Muslims, but they don't really believe in God & His Apostle)...
Surah 9:
1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
2. Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage, - that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
9. The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
10. In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
11. But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
15. And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
16. Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well- acquainted with (all) that ye do.
17. It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.
18. The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah. they are the people who will achieve (salvation).
21. Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:
22. They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in Allah's presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).
23. O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
24. Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.
25. Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunain: Behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat.
26. But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith.
27. Again will Allah, after this, turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
31. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
32. Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
Verse 32 is a verse I would refer to ivanb.
Now, if one is to read this brief passage, they would conclude:
#1. This chapter deals with the hypocrites (so-called Muslims), pagans, Jews and Christians.
#2. God ordered that the Muslims deal with these people in mercy and justice
#3. If anyone breaks the contract with regards to peace, the main reason for the contract is to stop the fighting, then the fighting will resume (ie, 9:29)
#4. The main point, in this passage, the Muslims were NEVER to be the aggressors, they are to DEFEND themselves and they have always done so. See verse 13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
So, in conclusion, once again, ivanb, deluded as usual, tried to prove that Islam and Muslims are these "terrible" people, yet he displays his intentions well enough for those who reflect, that their aim, much like their master (the Great Deceiver, the Evil One, the Satan, Devil) are themselves misguided from the truth.
Peace,
Omar
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Proclaim! (Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created:
Surah Al 'Alaq (96) v. 1. |
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Message posted by Omar on September 17 2005 at 11:14am - IP Logged
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| Omar |
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I would like to add that ivanb seems to have a chip on his shoulders as many of his friends or family are leaving the false teachings of the "preachers" and are accepting Islam. His comment, "This is exactly what happened in eastern Balkans, where I live. Turks came and behaved that way, and several millions people accepted islam."
Notice he said, "accepted" islam and not "Forced into Islam"? :)
How the truth speaks for itself.
9:32. Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
Subhan Allaah - Glory be to God
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Proclaim! (Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created:
Surah Al 'Alaq (96) v. 1. |
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Message posted by ivanb on September 17 2005 at 11:45am - IP Logged
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Hi Omar,
Plese be more concise.
29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
You have just confirmed what I have said. The point is right in "not forcing anyone to Islam", but in being rigid to them, so they finally accept it.
Namely, "Gabriel" needs willing, conscious renouncing Jesus' sacrifice. Therefore also "Talk with them (followers of the Book) in kindest way," etc.
Quite clear.
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ivan |
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Message posted by Omar on September 17 2005 at 1:32pm - IP Logged
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| Omar |
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Hi Ivan,
Evidently, you didn't read the context, which is not new. I'm not sure if you think you can just come here, quote a few verses out of their context, and expect us to simply dismiss our faith. You'll need to do more than that my friend :)
Why is it that you didn't read the verses preceeding verse 29, especially verse 13? Tell us why.
You're still trying to spread deception, might I remind you this is the work of the Devil. Ironically, the Devil is the same entity you're "trying" to persuade us from following, yet you, yourself, fits one of the qualities of what the Devil himself possess, mainly deception.
I'm not going to play your games, my time is too precious.
Omar
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Proclaim! (Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created:
Surah Al 'Alaq (96) v. 1. |
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Message posted by ivanb on September 17 2005 at 2:57pm - IP Logged
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Hi Omar
Verse 13 is obviously separated from the verse 29. The verse 29 stands in this context:
28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
This obvioisly refers to pagans' approaching the Sacred Mosque. The verse 13 about "pagans' violating oaths" is quite unrelated to the verse 29, which is quite independent.
29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
As I have said, islam is quite good to be accepted, and thereby to avoid being a second-class citizen. This is exactly what took place in eastern Balkans.
30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Typical of "Gabriel". He now strengthens the rigidness toward Christians. It was Christ himself who referred to himself as to God's son. You can find it in many places in the New Testament.
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ivan |
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Message posted by Omar on September 17 2005 at 3:38pm - IP Logged
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| Omar |
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Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on September 17 2005
Hi Omar
Verse 13 is obviously separated from the verse 29. The verse 29 stands in this context:
Well, this verse in the Bible also stands upon itself, using your logic:
17. "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31: 17-18
So we have a verse in the Bible ordering the KILLING of every LITTLE CHILD. So as we see, President George Bush, when he is sending his "smart" bombs to kill the innocent children of Iraq, is in actuality, only following what his Bible says for him to do. kill every male among the little ones.
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Proclaim! (Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created:
Surah Al 'Alaq (96) v. 1. |
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Message posted by ivanb on September 17 2005 at 4:16pm - IP Logged
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Hi Omar,
I think you have used a wrong parallel.
The Old Testament Israel was ordered to kill the pagans for they had been doing terrible abominations.
As to Iraq, I am always against use of force, especially against civilans. But let us return to the subject.
We talk about the relationship of the Quranic "Gabriel" and Christians. You have not commented my last letter.
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ivan |
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Message posted by ivanb on September 17 2005 at 4:32pm - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by Omar on September 17 2005
So, it's a wrong parallel when it applies to you and your religion, but cannot be used when it applies to Islam? Interesting.
As for your Gabriel comment, I've dealt with that in the Gabriel post, of which you had yet to answer my questions therein and the only reason you cannot answer the questions therein is because you'll never find what I asked in the Bible. Deal with the subject matter in the appropriate forums.
I must remind you that it was you that did not answer my last letter in the topic "Angel Gabriel". You answered only Mr. Barton. Please check it.
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ivan |
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Message posted by ivanb on September 17 2005 at 4:45pm - IP Logged
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You did not answer me in that topic, among other things, why Jesus spoke the following things in the New Testament. There must have been some reason.
Well:
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." (Matt. 17:9)
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matt 20:2
As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified. (Matt. 26:2)
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:2
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. (Mark 8:31)
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. (Mark 9:9)
We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."
(Mark 10:33, 34)
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. (Mark 14:24)
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. (John 2:18,21)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die. (John 12:.32,33)
And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." (Luke 9:22)
"He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him" (Luke 18:32)
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (Luke 22:20) |
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ivan |
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Message posted by sounddoctrin on September 21 2005 at 7:33pm - IP Logged
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| sounddoctrin |
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And islam is fastest spreading religion in the world.
==================================================
Sounddoctrin has this to show from a prophecy of Jesus Christ, the Holy, Sinless, TRUTH-telling, Never-lying prophet:
| Mat 7:13 |
"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the large numbers who choose the easy way. |
| Mat 7:14 |
But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it. |
| Mat 7:15 |
"Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep, but are really wolves that will tear you apart. |
| Mat 7:16 |
You can detect them by the way they act, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit. You don't pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles. |
| Mat 7:17 |
A healthy tree produces good fruit, and an unhealthy tree produces bad fruit. | |
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Message posted by sounddoctrin on September 21 2005 at 7:45pm - IP Logged
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| sounddoctrin |
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Can somebody tell me why Allah said that prophet Mohammad read the Quran?
Did Allah not know that the prophet did not KNOW how to read?
Here's the proof:
- [2.121] Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers.
- [17.106] And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.
In the following Suras, Allah commands prophet Mohammad to read:
- [69.19] Then as for him who is given his book in his right hand, he will say: Lo! read my book:
- [96.1] Read in the name of your Lord Who created.
- [96.3] Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,
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Message posted by Cheeki on October 02 2005 at 4:36pm - IP Logged
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| Cheeki |
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Ivan, you should really gain for knowledge. Your logic is completed flawed. You are in grave danger. How can you ever bring God down to man's level, by saying he has begotten a son? That is a property of a mortal. You are just so decieved. Have you never even studied philosophy? You should take a couple of philosophy classes and actually see from an unbaised perspective how decieved you are. I would recommend that you take 17th century philosophy, along with a class on Locke and Leibniz and gain an understanding about the different issues about religion going on at that time. It is just ridiculous the comments you make coming from a philosophical stand point. Seriously how could you ever bring God down to a mortal's level, have you no sense at all? And then you have the right to call muslim decievers. What on earth is wrong with you? Take logic at the very least. I'm sorry I do not mean to attack you, and I'm not attacking you remember that, and I will not make any further comments, but being a philosophy major I have a huge problem with flawed logic.
These are my premises I will state them again carefully just incase my premises got lost above
premis one: By saying that Jesus is the son of God, God's only son, you are saying that God shares a property with man, that is God gives birth. And by saying that you are also saying it is a necessity that God gives birth.
premise two: God is brought down to men's level, because men reproduce. God having the necessity to give brith, god has to reproduce. This is saying that the infinite power of God is not enough to run the universe but that he needs help from other entities such as "his son". You are saying that God is weak.
Conclusion: If God needed to give birth, and if God is not enough own his on, then he cannot be a God, but rather just something higher than God, but not all together an infinite being. God is a finite being. These are the claims that you are making Mr. Ivan.
Previous conclusion becoming first premise for the next conclusion: If you are saying that God is finite, then surely you are decieved.
Premise two: If you cannot see an error by being God a finite being you are decieved, because by the definition of a God, God is infinite. If God is infinite, he cannot share properties with finite beings. And a finite being cannot know all the properties of a inifinte being. That would be a contradiction. By stating that you know a property of God you are contradicting yourselve.
Conclusion: You are decieve, this is what a logical argument would dictate.
Again I'm not attacking you, but you logic makes no sense. And if you're logic is flawed you are in no state to make any further arguments, because your premises themselves cannot be true. You cannot have a true conclusion based on false premises. That is an unsound and incoherent argument.
Thank you, may Allah forgive me for my errors. I am a limited being and any errors that I make come from the decieved part of me. May Allah help me from being utterly decieved.
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Enter into knowledge with an opened heart, because mind you man is rather limited in all accounts and aspects; and therefore seek guidance from Allah at all times |
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Message posted by Omar on October 02 2005 at 4:57pm - IP Logged
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| Omar |
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as-salaamu'alaikum,
Masha Allaah, it's good to have another person join in with this dialogue. Insha'Allaah, whoever reads this can see what we Muslims say and what we believe in and what our Christian brothers say and what they believe in.
In the end, each will believe what they will and on the Day of Judgment, then Allaah will relate to us our actions.
I also reminded my christian brothers of this day, in the Day of Judgment, when Jesus himself will say to THEM, not us Muslims, but to those who profess to follow him (Jesus).
Matthew Chapter 7:
21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23. "And then I (Jesus) will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Here's a prophecy as sounddoctrin likes to quote prophecies, that WILL come to pass (God Willing). Muslims do not go about prophesying in "Jesus'" Name, rather, we say "In the Name of Allaah (God Almighty), Most Compassionate, Most Merciful"
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Proclaim! (Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created:
Surah Al 'Alaq (96) v. 1. |
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Message posted by ivanb on October 02 2005 at 7:01pm - IP Logged
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| ivanb |
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I have already discussed the subject on the topic "They shall NOT be wronged" in "Converting to islam".
Here I will just cite again the New Testament verses and passages where Jesus is referred to as the Son of God by others and himself. (I musty stress here that it was not me who wrote New Testament, nor any "Jibril" dictated it. It was written by 8 authors, out of whom 5 were Jesus direct disciples). Other tens of contemporaries confirmed its auhenticity (see related topics on this Forum).
Matthew:
2:15,. 3:17, 4:3, 4:6, 11:25, 14:32-33, 16:15-17, 17:5, 17:24, 22:41, 24:36, 26:63-64, 27:54
Mark:
1:11, 3:11, 5:7, 9:7, 12:37, 13:32, 14:61, 15:39
Luke:
1:32, 1:35, 3:22, 4:3,4, 4:9-12, 4:41, 8:28, 9:35, 10:21,22, 20:41-44, 22:70
John:
1:34, 1:49, 3:16, 3:17, 3:18, 3:34-36, 5:19-26, 5:27, 6:40, 8:36, 11:4, 11:27, 14:6-17, 17:1-5, 19:7, 20:31
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ivan |
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Message posted by Omar on October 02 2005 at 7:49pm - IP Logged
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| Omar |
Standard Member
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United States
January 14 2003
528 Posts |
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Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on October 02 2005
I have already discussed the subject on the topic "They shall NOT be wronged" in "Converting to islam".
Here I will just cite again the New Testament verses and passages where Jesus is referred to as the Son of God by others and himself. (I musty stress here that it was not me who wrote New Testament, nor any "Jibril" dictated it. It was written by 8 authors, out of whom 5 were Jesus direct disciples). Other tens of contemporaries confirmed its auhenticity (see related topics on this Forum).
Matthew:
2:15,. 3:17, 4:3, 4:6, 11:25, 14:32-33, 16:15-17, 17:5, 17:24, 22:41, 24:36, 26:63-64, 27:54
Mark:
1:11, 3:11, 5:7, 9:7, 12:37, 13:32, 14:61, 15:39
Luke:
1:32, 1:35, 3:22, 4:3,4, 4:9-12, 4:41, 8:28, 9:35, 10:21,22, 20:41-44, 22:70
John:
1:34, 1:49, 3:16, 3:17, 3:18, 3:34-36, 5:19-26, 5:27, 6:40, 8:36, 11:4, 11:27, 14:6-17, 17:1-5, 19:7, 20:31
Ivan,
I doesn't help you case any when you say: "It was written by 8 authors, out of whom 5 were Jesus direct disciples" even when your own Christian scholars admit that they UNKNOWN authors! They can't even agree or verify that the John who wrote John is actually John (the disciple of Jesus)...and the same goes for the rest of the so-called "authors"...for all we know, it's Mr. Paul who suddenly got "inspired" to write a bunch of books and say it's "inspired"! :)
As I had shown, and clearly shown I might add, using your own Bible, that there were TONS of "Sons of God" in there and I've also shown that the translators conveniently translates incorrectly the word "begotten" when it came to Jesus...a bunch of lies and a ton of more lies to cover up the first lies until the lies cannot be distinguished from what's a big lie and a small lie...all lies grouped together produced the biggest lie, the Corrupt BIBLE!
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Proclaim! (Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created:
Surah Al 'Alaq (96) v. 1. |
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Message posted by ivanb on October 02 2005 at 9:02pm - IP Logged
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| ivanb |
Standard Member
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Yugoslavia
August 12 2005
68 Posts |
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Quote: Originally posted by Omar on October 02 2005
Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on October 02 2005
I have already discussed the subject on the topic "They shall NOT be wronged" in "Converting to islam".
Here I will just cite again the New Testament verses and passages where Jesus is referred to as the Son of God by others and himself. (I musty stress here that it was not me who wrote New Testament, nor any "Jibril" dictated it. It was written by 8 authors, out of whom 5 were Jesus direct disciples). Other tens of contemporaries confirmed its auhenticity (see related topics on this Forum).
Matthew:
2:15,. 3:17, 4:3, 4:6, 11:25, 14:32-33, 16:15-17, 17:5, 17:24, 22:41, 24:36, 26:63-64, 27:54
Mark:
1:11, 3:11, 5:7, 9:7, 12:37, 13:32, 14:61, 15:39
Luke:
1:32, 1:35, 3:22, 4:3,4, 4:9-12, 4:41, 8:28, 9:35, 10:21,22, 20:41-44, 22:70
John:
1:34, 1:49, 3:16, 3:17, 3:18, 3:34-36, 5:19-26, 5:27, 6:40, 8:36, 11:4, 11:27, 14:6-17, 17:1-5, 19:7, 20:31
Ivan,
I doesn't help you case any when you say: "It was written by 8 authors, out of whom 5 were Jesus direct disciples" even when your own Christian scholars admit that they UNKNOWN authors!
The authenticity of the present New Testament was confirmed by all authors of I-II century (please see (finally) the site Early Christian Writings", for example - although the dating there is a bit imprecise).
As to Paul and his "bunch of books" see topic "Was Bible tampered".
About "corrupt BIBLE", see my other posts on this forum, including radiometric dating results on the above mentioned one.
I realy don't understand your attitudes. You behave like a
"defender of Islam," instead of an objective researcher. I had to repeat you the very same things several times in diferent topics. Just check them once forever.
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ivan |
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