Quote: Originally posted by Rose on September 06 2005

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Just ask...for guidance. Simple. Know that it requires a genuine and honest heart...true submission.

Rose

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If I am the target of your message,  I am happy to tell you that I asked for GUIDANCE with a genuine and honest hearet, but the GUIDE has failed to guide me.

Since I am just a human being with no supernatural power,  it means that the GUIDE with the power has to be blamed for my situation.

I am afraid that the Guide will not guide me because the guide has already said I am cursed because am an unbeliever.

Let me show it now:

1. [2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
2. [2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's cursed is on the unbelievers.
3. [2.159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
4. [2.161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

Can you see that I am cursed three fold: By the Guide, by angels, and by Muslims.

Quote: Originally posted by Omar on October 27 2004

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Side Note: The Qur'aan also has Scientific Miracles therein, (Muslims did not go about killing those who embarked upon scientific discoveries like your Christian brothers in the past). 

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Any so-called Christian who embarks on killing any human being can never be called a Christian. 

Why? 

Because our Noble , Holy, kind, Gentle, merciful, FORGIVING, prophet and teacher Isa *never*  instructed anybody to kill anybody, even if they are enemies.  (If enemies are trying to kill Christians , then He taught us to  defend ourselves by killing the killers)!.

If Jesus had taught us NOT TO DEFEND ourselves when enemies come to kill us, can you imagine the situation today? 

Not one Christian would be living on planet earth, becasue every Christian would have allowed their enemies to kill them wholesale! 

Christianity would not have lasted even ten years in the world. 

If Christianity had lasted 600 yrs without self-defense, prophet Mohammad with his army would have killed every Christian in Israel and the whole Middle East!.

Here is my proof:

1. [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
2. [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Now, coming back to your accusation about Christians killing Christians over scientific discoveries,  those who killed were of the Roman Catholic faith.

Roman Catholics are NOT true Christians.  They are a cult like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.  They profess with thier mouth that they are Christians, but in their hearts they are the enemies of Christianity.

2nd Timothy  3:5

They will act as if they are religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. You must stay away from people like that.

Their theology is completely ANTI-Christian.

Real Christians do not kill other human beings;  they love them even if they  hate them.

Jesus taught this to His REAL followers:

Mat 5:43	"You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
Mat 5:44	But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!
Mat 5:45	In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven.

Sorry for interference, but I would like to comment one very interesting citation by Omar. (I beg Muslims not to take this personally)

1. [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

This is exactly what happened in eastern Balkans, where I live. Turks came and behaved that way, and several millions people accepted islam.

I have already expressed (well substantiated) opinion in the topic Angel Gabriel, that the "Gabriel" who appeared to Mohammad was actually devil. This perfectly fits the picture of behavior toward conquered Christians. Here is why: 

They are not to be killed, but to be so rigidly handled that they accept islam. After all, why not? Islam believes in one God, forbids adultery, stealing, idolatry etc.

And that's the point. "Gabriel" does not want Christian lives, he wants their souls, their adoration. Islam is right enough good to be accepted, to bless daily Mohammad who denied crucifiction, bow to Mecca instead to the Mount of Olive from where Jesus ascended, and thereby to deny need for Jesus sacrifice.

And islam is fastest spreading religion in the world.

Satan's masterpiece.

Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on September 16 2005

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Sorry for interference, but I would like to comment one very interesting citation by Omar. (I beg Muslims not to take this personally)

1. [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

This is exactly what happened in eastern Balkans, where I live. Turks came and behaved that way, and several millions people accepted islam.

I have already expressed (well substantiated) opinion in the topic Angel Gabriel, that the "Gabriel" who appeared to Mohammad was actually devil. This perfectly fits the picture of behavior toward conquered Christians. Here is why: 

They are not to be killed, but to be so rigidly handled that they accept islam. After all, why not? Islam believes in one God, forbids adultery, stealing, idolatry etc.

And that's the point. "Gabriel" does not want Christian lives, he wants their souls, their adoration. Islam is right enough good to be accepted, to bless daily Mohammad who denied crucifiction, bow to Mecca instead to the Mount of Olive from where Jesus ascended, and thereby to deny need for Jesus sacrifice.

And islam is fastest spreading religion in the world.

Satan's masterpiece.

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Sounddoctrin says:  Praise the Good Lord Jehovah, for your personal testimony.

Nobody can contest testimonies of people who have gone thru bad experiences like you have witnessed.

Muslims are quick to deny even facts if it helps them to promote Islam.

One good example is the record of Jesus' crucifixion and death reported in writing by secular historians.

Muslims say that the secular historians were Christians, or that Christians altered what the secular historians wrote.

So, there's no way anybody can prove anything from even secular history, let alone the Bible.

For Muslims the whole Bible is a CORRUPTED book.  The ONLY words that are NOT corrupted are the words that the Allah of the Quran agrees with.

Let me show you just one simple example to prove my point:

Exodus 21:24	If an eye is injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it. Similarly, the payment must be hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exd 21:25	burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on September 16 2005

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I have already expressed (well substantiated) opinion in the topic Angel Gabriel, that the "Gabriel" who appeared to Mohammad was actually devil. This perfectly fits the picture of behavior toward conquered Christians. Here is why: 

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I can support the above with another episode.  Here it is from the Bible:

1st Samuel  28:5	When Saul saw the vast Philistine army, he became frantic with fear.
1Sa 28:6	He asked the Lord what he should do, but the Lord refused to answer him, either by dreams or by sacred lots or by the prophets.
1Sa 28:7	Saul then said to his advisers, "Find a woman who is a medium, so I can go and ask her what to do." His advisers replied, "There is a medium at Endor."
1Sa 28:8	So Saul disguised himself by wearing ordinary clothing instead of his royal robes. Then he went to the woman's home at night, accompanied by two of his men. "I have to talk to a man who has died," he said. "Will you call up his spirit for me?"
1Sa 28:9	"Are you trying to get me killed?" the woman demanded. "You know that Saul has expelled all the mediums and psychics from the land. Why are you setting a trap for me?"
1Sa 28:10	But Saul took an oath in the name of the Lord and promised, "As surely as the Lord lives, nothing bad will happen to you for doing this."
1Sa 28:11	Finally, the woman said, "Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?" "Call up Samuel," Saul replied.
1Sa 28:12	When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed, "You've deceived me! You are Saul!"
1Sa 28:13	"Don't be afraid!" the king told her. "What do you see?" "I see a god coming up out of the earth," she said.
1Sa 28:14	"What does he look like?" Saul asked. "He is an old man wrapped in a robe," she replied. Saul realized that it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him.
1Sa 28:15	"Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?" Samuel asked. "Because I am in deep trouble," Saul replied. "The Philistines are at war with us, and God has left me and won't reply by prophets or dreams. So I have called for you to tell me what to do."

The REAL Almighty God of the Bible never decieves people. 

Here King Saul was deceived.   So, we all should know that the Almighty God didn't do it! 

But some supernatural power did it, and it had be an EVIL supernatural power.  Thus, it had to be Satan using his demons to decieve.

Who else could it be, because there are only 2 (two) supernatural powers in the univers.  One is holy and therefore the other has to be evil, because he decieves.

Quote: Originally posted by sounddoctrin on August 18 2005

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[4.113] And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy a party of them had certainly designed to bring you to perdition and they do not bring (aught) to perdition but their own souls, and

***they shall not harm you in any way,***

and Allah has revealed to you the Book and the wisdom, and He has taught you what you did not know, and Allah's grace on you is very great.

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The above is a statement of **promise** from Allah that he will *NOT ALLOW* any *party* to *harm* any Muslims.

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Here are more promises of Allah to Muslims:  But read the PROMISES and find out how many of the PROMISES are being kept by Allah in these days! (The victory of "Shaitan" USA along with the "willing COALITION" against Islamic Terrorists should teach a lesson or two to the world about the false promises of the Quran)!

1. [2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

1. [2.143] And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Apostle from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.
2. [2.144] Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.
3. [2.165] And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
4. [2.181] Whoever then alters it after he has heard it, the sin of it then is only upon those who alter it; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
5. [2.194] The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
6. [2.202] They shall have (their) portion of what they have earned, and Allah is swift in reckoning.

[2.211] Ask the Israelites how many a clear sign have We given them; and whoever changes the favor of Allah after it has come to him, then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

1. [2.214] Or do you think that you would enter the garden while yet the state of those who have passed away before you has not come upon you; distress and affliction befell them and they were shaken violently, so that the Apostle and those who believed with him said: When will the help of Allah come? Now surely the help of Allah is nigh!
2. [2.244] And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
3. [2.251] So they put them to flight by Allah's permission. And Dawood slew Jalut, and Allah gave him kingdom and wisdom, and taught him of what He pleased. And were it not for Allah's repelling some men with others, the earth would certainly be in a state of disorder; but Allah is Gracious to the creatures.
4. [2.257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
5. [2.261] The parable of those who spend their property in the way of Allah is as the parable of a grain growing seven ears (with) a hundred grains in every ear; and Allah multiplies for whom He pleases; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing

 

1. [2.263] Kind speech and forgiveness is better than charity followed by injury; and Allah is Self-sufficient, Forbearing.
3. [2.268] Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins you to be niggardly, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
4. [2.271] If you give alms openly, it is well, and if you hide it and give it to the poor, it is better for you; and this will do away with some of your evil deeds; and Allah is aware of what you do.

color=#800080 The Family of Imran

1. [3.4] Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
2. [3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.

I agree with you, but could you be more concise? This rather looks as a lecture, not as a dialog. Thereby you can repulse the Muslim readers, who need a sound doctrine most.

Now I will repost my comment, and am waiting for opinion of some Muslim or someone who entertains conversion to islam.

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[9.29] "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

This is exactly what happened in eastern Balkans, where I live. Turks came and behaved that way, and several millions people accepted islam.

I have already expressed (well substantiated) opinion in the topic Angel Gabriel, that the "Gabriel" who appeared to Mohammad was actually devil. This perfectly fits the picture of behavior toward conquered Christians. Here is why: 

They are not to be killed, but to be so rigidly handled that they accept islam. After all, why not? Islam believes in one God, forbids adultery, stealing, idolatry etc.

And that's the point. "Gabriel" does not want Christian lives, he wants their souls, their adoration. Islam is right enough good to be accepted, to bless daily Mohammad who denied crucifiction, bow to Mecca instead to the Mount of Olive from where Jesus ascended, and thereby to deny need for Jesus sacrifice.

And islam is fastest spreading religion in the world.

Satan's masterpiece.

This is for ivanb:

I am on Muslim Message Boards to make Muslims think "outside the box."

They condemn Jews and Christians for being narrow-minded and "tunnel-visioned."

But they don't see how badly narrow-minded and tunnel-visioned they are, themselves.

They tell me: "Remove the beam in your own eye first before you try to remove the speck of dust in others' eyes."

But they are guilty of the same thing that they accuse others of doing!

So, I am not here dialoguing with Muslims.  I am here making them think in ways about their belief-system they have NEVER thought before!

They think I am here to convert them to Christianity!   That is the farthest from the truth!

I can NOT change hearts.  Only the Holy Spirit of Almighty God can do it.

On the other hand, no Muslim will ever be able to change my heart because they will be in Blasphemy against their Allah for trying to work against Allah's will.

Here's my proof from Allah Himself:

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

1. [2.7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
2. [2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.

Can you see now?  Who can REMOVE the seal , the covering and the curse of Allah on me?

Only Allah can do it , but he won't.  Why? 

Heres the proof:

1. [3.12] Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.
2. [3.162] Is then he who follows the pleasure of Allah like him who has made himself deserving of displeasure from Allah, and his abode is hell; and it is an evil destination.
3. [3.197] A brief enjoyment! then their abode is hell, and evil is the resting-place.

Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on September 17 2005

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I know what you mean. But I know them, for I have grown up among them. They are simply brain-washed, and it is necessary to make them think. They have inner drawbacks even to listten to a Christian too long. "Gabriel" did his job well.  

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I am simply curious, where did you live among Muslims?  Are you still among them?

I have many Muslim friends.  They are not one bit interested in spiritual matters like I am.  They have never opened a Quran in thier lives.  Nor have their parents.   They are all hoping to go to paradise because they think somehow Allah will have mercy on them for the little good they have done down here!

All they are able to tell me is that I will go to hell-fire because I am not surrendered to thier Allah.

They have heard I guess a thousand time from other Muslims that Chiistains are believing in a corrupted Bible and that Jesus Christ never died on a cross.

That's all they know to tell me. 

When I ask them to show me how the millions of Bibles in various languages could have been corrupted without even missing one , they have no explanation except to say:  Well, they somehow did it; but I don't know how!

They think that, that answer will make me happy and I'll go away, not to bug them again!

"I am simply curious, where did you live among Muslims?  Are you still among them?"

In a way I am, but I don't like to expose myself much. This life is a rather pleasant habit.

"I have many Muslim friends.  They are not one bit interested in spiritual matters like I am.  They have never opened a Quran in thier lives.  Nor have their parents.   They are all hoping to go to paradise because they think somehow Allah will have mercy on them for the little good they have done down here!"

I think that these "non-observing" Muslims have much more chances for salvation than those who bless daily the man who denied crucifiction and ressurection, who bow to the black cube (what a temple!), and go pilgrimage there. The latter will probably will be claimed upon by "Gabriel" on the Day of  Judgment, or he simply prevents them thereby to receive the gift of Holy Spirit.

Anyway, whatever "Gabriel" did and ordered, he sure did it deliberately. He probably has some means to make malice to Muslims eventually. I would not be in their skin, and I pray for good men among them.

 

Quote: Originally posted by ivanb on September 17 2005

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I think that these "non-observing" Muslims have much more chances for salvation than those who bless daily the man who denied crucifiction and ressurection, who bow to the black cube (what a temple!), and go pilgrimage there. The latter will probably will be claimed upon by "Gabriel" on the Day of  Judgment, or he simply prevents them thereby to receive the gift of Holy Spirit.

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Sound says :  You forgot to add  the thing about STONING SATAN in Mecca where about 2 million pilgrims hit Shaitan with stones.

I guess these pilgrims have been doing this stoning for at least a thousand years of the 1400 yrs of Islam.

But curiously Shaitan is getting more strong year by year.  Otherwise, how do you explain Muslims killing Muslims with HOMICIDE/suicide  BOMBERS as never before in the history of Islam.

 

Quote: Originally posted by sounddoctrin on September 17 2005

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But curiously Shaitan is getting more strong year by year.  Otherwise, how do you explain Muslims killing Muslims with HOMICIDE/suicide  BOMBERS as never before in the history of Islam.

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Quote: Originally posted by Abdullaah on September 17 2005

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Quote: Originally posted by sounddoctrin on September 17 2005

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But curiously Shaitan is getting more strong year by year.  Otherwise, how do you explain Muslims killing Muslims with HOMICIDE/suicide  BOMBERS as never before in the history of Islam.

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I think those Muslims you're talking about were reading this passage from the Bible:

 

1 Samuel 15:2-4

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

 

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Sound says this:

The Hebrews were not asked to kill Hebrews. 

They were ordered to kill their IDOL-WORSHIPPING enemies, so that when the Hebrews took the land of Caanan there would not be any idol-worshippers to influence the Hebrews.

In these days, I watch on my TV screen daily Muslims killing Muslims.

 

There is a huge difference!

By the way, I think you should not have TV set.

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them." Exodus 20:4,5

When you buy, repair, pay electricity or any subscription for TV, you spend you earned money on "the forms of everything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below," which you find on TV-set - and thereby serve them in a way.

After all, its horns are on the roof, and the tail is in the wall, isn't it?

Same hold for cinemas and video clubs.

It is interesting that "Gabriel" stressed right this aspect of monotheism, which is quite abandoned in the mainstream Chrisianity. A big point more for Islam. Very intelligently.

Quote: Originally posted by sounddoctrin on September 17 2005

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Quote: Originally posted by Abdullaah on September 17 2005

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Quote: Originally posted by sounddoctrin on September 17 2005

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But curiously Shaitan is getting more strong year by year.  Otherwise, how do you explain Muslims killing Muslims with HOMICIDE/suicide  BOMBERS as never before in the history of Islam.

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I think those Muslims you're talking about were reading this passage from the Bible:

 

1 Samuel 15:2-4

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

 

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Sound says this:

The Hebrews were not asked to kill Hebrews. 

They were ordered to kill their IDOL-WORSHIPPING enemies, so that when the Hebrews took the land of Caanan there would not be any idol-worshippers to influence the Hebrews.

In these days, I watch on my TV screen daily Muslims killing Muslims.

 

There is a huge difference!

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